Curse

Zamochit · Aug 25, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

The chest is where all spell *direct damage* hits you, so if you are going to run additional armour anywhere I would run it there. Statistically the probability of being hit there is 3/8 or 37.5% from all other damage anyway, so yeah additional armor on chest piece is generally better than a lot of people think it is. I usually take it over the extra 15hp from survivor, but ONLY on the chest piece.

daze · Aug 25, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamochit

The chest is where all spell *direct damage* hits you, so if you are going to run additional armour anywhere I would run it there.

Hmm, that's good to know. since i do like to have a survivor rune on the chest maybe ill start putting the vigor rune somewhere else

and thanks for the link

-Lotus- · Aug 25, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Just trying to save him some money for when he moves on to the real Guild Wars, aka GvG.

so you are also advising him to use his PvE characters in GvG? good advice..... not

Abedeus · Aug 25, 2008, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Published by Keramon on February 24, 2005

What a *cough* reliable *cough* source. Where exactly spells hit, it's unknown, probably, like normal attacks, they have a chance to attack any part of body.

Besides, you would need 4+ enchantments to have +20 armor, but 0+ enchantments for +15 health. And normal dervishes, not those "ZOMG LOOK I CAN TANK LOL" morons, don't use more than 2, 3 enchantments AT MOST.

daze · Aug 25, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Besides, you would need 4+ enchantments to have +20 armor, but 0+ enchantments for +15 health. And normal dervishes, not those "ZOMG LOOK I CAN TANK LOL" morons, don't use more than 2, 3 enchantments AT MOST.

although both builds offer very high health regen and the first one has better damage reduction with [[armor of sanctity], i would hardly call them tank builds.
And "normal dervishes" dont use more than 2, 3 enchantments? since it is argumentative to even object to that. all i can say is out of EVERY derv build i have seen(whether it is in wiki or in game) over 90% of them have MORE THAN 3 enchantments.
[avatar of melandru][mystic regeneration][aura of holy might][eternal aura][armor of sanctity][heart of fury][mystic corruption][wearying strike]<< forgot to mention that a zealous scythe helps in this build

[avatar of lyssa][mystic regeneration][eternal aura][aura of thorns][staggering force][mystic corruption][radiant scythe][mystic sandstorm]<<<<[aura of holy might] is good to throw in that build too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Where exactly spells hit, it's unknown, probably, like normal attacks, they have a chance to attack any part of body.

Unknown to you maybe, but if you bothered to read the link which Zamochit was so nice to offer, you might have seen that spells all hit the chest.
^
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Look upwards about 4 posts ^

Zamochit · Aug 25, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Its a game mechanic - It hasnt changed afaik - test it if you dont believe me with a relevent direct damage spell. Also he can run blessed insignia on the chest if he is using one or two enchants which only requires one enchant to give +10 armor vs all damage, you aren't limited to dervish specific insignia. that 10 armour should give you around an additional 19% damage reduction compared to your standard.

Just so you know as well [skill]searing flames[/skill] counts as a direct damage spell on top of any other spell which has the term 'struck' in its skill discription. Direct damage spells always strike the chest.

With any other spell type the armor piece is random, but still has a high likelyhood of hitting the chest anyway (37.5%).

Also Dervish can afford to miss out on the survivor insignia on the chest because their armor carrys an inherent health bonus which compensates.

zelgadissan · Aug 25, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Direct damage spells do not always hit the chest. Trust me, I thought they did, and I got owned.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10301356

BTW, the skill in question was Fire Storm, whose description reads: Create a Fire Storm at target foe's location. For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for 5...29...35 fire damage each second.

Edit: daze the builds two posts up are awful. First one especially. Unless you've got somewhere between 60-80 energy, of course. Abedeus is 100% right on all accounts.

-Lotus- · Aug 25, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

although both builds offer very high health regen and the first one has better damage reduction with [[armor of sanctity], i would hardly call them tank builds.
And "normal dervishes" dont use more than 2, 3 enchantments? since it is argumentative to even object to that. all i can say is out of EVERY derv build i have seen(whether it is in wiki or in game) over 90% of them have MORE THAN 3 enchantments.
[avatar of melandru][mystic regeneration][aura of holy might][eternal aura][armor of sanctity][heart of fury][mystic corruption][wearying strike]

[avatar of lyssa][mystic regeneration][eternal aura][aura of thorns][staggering force][mystic corruption][radiant scythe][mystic sandstorm]<<<<[aura of holy might] is good to throw in that build too

when you use an argument like this you make yourself look increadibly stupid. these builds are terrible, it is a pparent that you dont know the role you should be playing in GW, the only enchantments that you should be taking in a normal derv build are [Aura of Holy Might], [Heart of Fury] and maybe [Eternal Aura].

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamochit

The chest is where all spell *direct damage* hits you, so if you are going to run additional armour anywhere I would run it there. Statistically the probability of being hit there is 3/8 or 37.5% from all other damage anyway, so yeah additional armor on chest piece is generally better than a lot of people think it is. I usually take it over the extra 15hp from survivor, but ONLY on the chest piece.

just tested this. results:
http://i38.tinypic.com/210wyad.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/8vrf6b.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/9bgpj4.jpg

these tests are against a level 20 paragon wearing a max chest piece and no other armor. I only fired off 4 spells, but none of them hit the chest piece.

direct damage skills do not always hit the chest piece.

MegaVolti · Aug 25, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

What is HP good for? Let's just look at it from the number side:

You are in a fight. What can happen there?
1. Spike. You survive a spike by having tons of HP. Ok, HP insignia are useful here. On the other hand usually the spike is not armor ignoring, so the armor is also useful. In fact mostly the pressure spells are armor ignoring (conditions, dereg) so against a spike the armor is most of the time more useful then the health boost.
2. Pressure. Here health is completely useless. Party incoming damage = X. Monk healing = Y. If X > Y you will die in the long run, no matter if you have 400 or 1000 health. Yes, with more health you die a little later but you still die. No point in going for health then. Only in the very unlikely situation that you are facing such an X > Y situation and in the even more unlikely situation that the additional 40 HP from insignia make exactly the time difference that your group needs to kill the main DD so the damage hitting you (X) gets smaller, only in this very unlikely situation does the 40 HP boost matter at all. Which is - again - extremely unlikely. Or in words better known to monks: Only the last hitpoints count.
Armor on the other hands makes X smaller from the start. It reduces incoming damage, making life easier for your monks. You will also last longer in the fight, as you would with more life, but the monks need to heal less. So in a long fight, armor is always better then life.

Coming back to the previous example: The only situation were life is better then armor is when you are facing such an X > Y situation and in the even more unlikely situation that the additional 40 HP from insignia make exactly the time difference that your group needs to kill the main DD so the damage hitting you (X) gets smaller and (this part is new) at the same time the main damage source was armor ignoring so that the 40 HP you have less did not already get compensated by the damage reduction you got from your armor.

In other words: Armor is ALWAYS better then life. You can construct some arbitrary situation were life wins (as I did above) but you clearly see that this is not realistic in any way. Go for armor. Always. On every character.

So the only question is: +10 from one enchantment or +5 per enchantment for max 20? I prefer having max20 because Monks tend to give me 1-2 and I have 1-2 of my own always active (in PvE).

daze · Aug 25, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

[Aura of Holy Might], [Heart of Fury] and maybe [Eternal Aura].

Well, you just confirmed your intelligence (or lack of) with that statement, not because i am able to breeze through Hard mode with either of those builds, but the "maybe [eternal aura]" part. As everybody with half a brain knows, if you are using an avatar, you should ALWAYS, not maybe bring [[eternal aura]
And as for [[armor of sanctity] or [[mystic corruption]. I hardly find it stupid to bring skills that play off of causing conditions especially when they are so easily spammed.
And from earlier posts in previous threads, i have already realized that you are incapable of wrapping your head around the fact that bringing [[mystic regeneration] WILL take pressure off the monks so they can focus on other party members. But honestly, what is the use of arguing.As you so aptly state in 90% of your threads, everybody who has a different opinion than you just makes themselves look stupid anyways.

BTW [ebon dust aura] + [armor of sanctity] + [mystic corruption] + [reap impurities] go great together

Just curious, but i was wondering why its a good idea to call someone stupid or flame them for using

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

more than 2, 3 enchantments AT MOST.

? Especially since dervish enchantments synergise soo well together and seem to become more powerful based on how many enchantments you use. [crippling sweep], [mystic sweep], [dwaynas touch], [mystic healing], [mystic twister], [signet of mystic speed], [mystic vigor], [mystic corruption], and [mystic regeneration] are just the skills that work upon having multiple enchantments. If i was trying to list the skills that are contingent on using enchantments, i may as well list every derv skill.

-Lotus- · Aug 25, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Well, you just confirmed your intelligence (or lack of) with that statement, not because i am able to breeze through Hard mode with either of those builds, but the "maybe [eternal aura]" part. As everybody with half a brain knows, if you are using an avatar, you should ALWAYS, not maybe bring [[eternal aura]

not everyone always brings an avatar. bringing eternal aura with wounding strike is stupid.

Quote:

[BTW [ebon dust aura] + [armor of sanctity] + [mystic corruption] + [reap impurities] go great together

EDA + Spears/bows go good together.

At a glance the dervish profession seems rliant on carrying around a bunch of enchantments to augment itself in melee. this is not the case. the dervish is very similar to a warrior, their IAS just comes in enchantment form and they get a niftty little PvE skill to make things blow up. It's similar to an ele, who at a glance appears to be a huge damage dealer or nuker, but after a week of playing the profession yourealize what your character can really excel at. please spend some time actually playing your dervish before you attempt to give advise or provide any sort of reasonable discussion.

Edit: @MegaVolti, your simplistic analysis of damage vs healing dosnt look at prot or how/when healing and damage, and prot for that matter, hit you.

MegaVolti · Aug 25, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Lotus: In the long run (averaged over the fight) it does not matter when stuff hits you. And for short times I got it covered (spikes).
Prot doesn't change anything in that, except that both armor and health get more useful.

joshuarodger · Aug 25, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

At a glance the dervish profession seems rliant on carrying around a bunch of enchantments to augment itself in melee. this is not the case. the dervish is very similar to a warrior, their IAS just comes in enchantment form and they get a niftty little PvE skill to make things blow up. It's similar to an ele, who at a glance appears to be a huge damage dealer or nuker, but after a week of playing the profession yourealize what your character can really excel at.

QFT

lotus seems to be the only one in this thread who has more than about two weeks of playing a derv. he does, however, toss around the word "stupid" a bit too freely.

in an answer to the original question of the thread, for runes i run +1 +1scythe headpiece, vigor on chest, mysticism on hands, vitae on legs and i have 3 sets of shoes, one with a with a wind prayers rune, one with earth prayers, and one with vitae. i switch the shoes depending on what build i'm running, but more often than not, i'm using the vitae shoes.

for insignias, if you feel more comfortable with more health, use all survivor insignias, you can't really go wrong there. if you want to reduce damage, use windwalkers or blessed. windwalkers are nice but i find that i don't always have 4 enchants on myself to get the full armor boost. i do almost always have [[aura of holy] and [[heart of fury] on though. in this situation you get the same armor boost with either insignia, but if you do happen to catch an aegis, guardian, prot spirit, etc. from your monk, the windwalker's will boost it even more.

there are very few times, IMO, when health is actually more beneficial than armor. let me refer you to this post over a +armor mod on a scythe vs. a +HP mod: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=27. there are occasions where most of the health loss comes from health degeneration, though, in which case more HP would help but those are few and far between, from my experience.

the downfall to having less health, but more armor, is that you will be targeted more often than players with more health than you because that's the way the AI is set up. enemies in PvE generally attack the opposing foe with the least health, even if that foe's health bar is full and another's is not but has more overall health, i believe. i.e. someone with 560/560 health will be attacked before someone with 580/620 health. (this is just based on what i've read and observed in-game. i have no "real" proof to support this.) this is why major and superior attribute runes are frowned upon; they lower your health even more.

my personal preference, again, is:
Head: survivor, +1 scythe mastery with a minor scythe rune
Chest: Windwalker's, best vigor rune you can afford
Hands: survivor, minor mysticism rune
Legs: Windwalker's, vitae rune
Feet: survivor, either minor earth, minor wind, or vitae rune

chest and legs get hit much more often than other areas so i put extra armor there. an extra 15 armor from survivor insignias isn't generally noticeable, but it's more helpful than just about anything else i could put there, imo.

earlier someone said something about having +60 armor because they had windwalker insignias on their hands, head and feet. that is completely incorrect. that means you have a possible (depending on how many active enchants you have up) +20 armor for each of those specific areas. armor in GW does not cover the entire body or add together with armor from other areas of the body. if you have a +10 armor insignia on your head, that does nothing to protect your chest, legs, arms, or feet.

MegaVolti · Aug 26, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

If enemies attack just the guy with the least health then having -health items on the melee would be GREAT and +life items should be bad. After all you want to keep the damage away from your casters, right? So you should make yourself a target, keep enemy aggro and at the same time reduce incoming damage by having armor.

But as far as I know, the AI does not work like that. To my knowledge, armor is factored in when the target is picked, meaning the AI will attack the 600 HP 60 armor guy before the 590 HP 80 armor guy.

Bobby2 · Aug 26, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

*chant* The Answaaaa to anythaaaang *chant off*

......................[save yourselves]........................

yesh, it makes u Teh Brayve Frontliner!!!!

Stack up on HP

EDIT: oh btw

In theory this is the ultimate AI mindf*ck - then why are my 160AL Heroes still being attacked some? Increase in probability okay, but definitely not full-proof.

Whirlwind · Aug 28, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'll be the typical Guru'er:

Wrong forum + Use brains:

Survivor ALWAYS. No reason for ANY skill bar (Besides skilsl that specificly rely on high energy, such as [Mind Blast])

Sup Vigor, and then Minor, Major or Sup for whatever U want.

GW is really not that hard...

Dervishes use enchants, and have enchants casted on them (just like everyone else)... use Blessed insignias and you can gain +20 armor from it... The little +5 or +15 health bonus's is not going to outdo that.

More armor means you receive less damage, so you need Less healing to stay alive.

More health means you receive more damage AND have to be healed more often to stay alive. You also have a higher max health that will require even more healing to cap you out.

Really isn't any question here, armor > health on insignias.

P.S. No i do not care about degen, it's not significant enough to matter. When you get critted on for 350+ in slavers HM, happening in under 1 second, bring up degen again and compare it to that

daze · Aug 28, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whirlwind

P.S. No i do not care about degen, it's not significant enough to matter. When you get critted on for 350+ in slavers HM, happening in under 1 second, bring up degen again and compare it to that

plus degen is no problem for any derv with [mystic regeneration] and sufficient earth prayers. It hard to degen +12 pip regen.

Lyynyyrd · Aug 28, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

[rend enchantments]

AFKAFKAFKAFKAFK

daze · Aug 28, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

[rend enchantments]

AFKAFKAFKAFKAFK

[rend enchantments] + 4 enchantments = thanks for 60 health and 20 energy back. Mysticism FTW. Plus thanks for the recharge of all my skills for ending [eternal aura] not to mention the fact that when most derv enchantments end, they usually hurt the enemy or buff the user. . [rend enchantments] is kinda close to [mystic sandstorm] except the former has very minimal side effects and the latter just causes more pain upon the enemy.

Mister PMA · Aug 28, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

The Rend Enchantments skill descirp says it only works on MONK enchants, which i dont think a derv would be casting on himself? That skill will do the same amount of damage to everyone.

p.s. If the skill got changed to rend ALL enchants then forget what i just said..